EDMONDS.COM : EVIL OR VERY EVIL?
Dear Fellow Dealers,
I’m not sure how to approach this, but I want to ruffle the feathers of as many of my peers as possible. After nine years running a special finance department, I have recently opened our new Hyundai store. At about the same time, Auto Trader (whom we likely all do business with) purchased Edmonds.com (who few of us actually do business with). The first few customers that came in “quoting” me Edmonds prices on my cars that were a net loss, I laughed at them. After more than a dozen in two months, I’m not laughing any more. On one side of the business, Auto Trader is extorting dealers on their used car sites. They’re the biggest, and they feel if you aren’t doing business with them, you’re not doing business. On the other side, Edmonds.com is telling customers they can buy cars at a net loss to the dealer. Any guesses as to who the customer is more likely to believe? The customers leave angry, assuming the big, mean, dealer is full of crap, and the internet company, much like the alien autopsy, the DaVinci code, and Nostradamus predicting 9/11, must be the god’s honest truth. I’ve had about enough of it. We are perfectly happy making a few hundred dollars on a car once in a while, but especially considering the industry the way it is, we have to at least sell the cars. Edmonds.com is not a resource, they’re an illness that needs to be cured. If only one of us is willing to make a stand against it, the kind of nonchalant, b.s. response you see below will continue. They feel we need them more than they need us. As I’m sure most of you already know, Hyundai has been announced as JD Power and Assoc’s No. 1 non luxury manufactures, and only out ranked by Cadillac, Porsche, and Lexus overall. I’ve run searches on many other manufacturers and models. We’re not the only one’s they’re doing it to. The claim their information is based on data. They, however are lying. They can’t break down sales by trim levels that are not ever reported. I say it doesn’t matter if they’re using a mandate handed down from the gods. The information needs to be removed from their site because it is damaging their TRUE customers; US.
Scott Creason
Hyundai of Kirkland
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From: Edmunds.com Help [mailto:edmunds@mailca.custhelp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:30 PM
To: screason@fordofkirkland.com
Subject: so far no one has responded to any emails or messages so far. how about this.... [Incident: 090705-000014]
Subject
so far no one has responded to any emails or messages so far. how about this....
Discussion Thread
Response (Mark)
07/07/2009 01:30 PM
Hi, Scott. Thanks for writing back. If you have any specific examples of where your data does not match our data, please send them along. As I noted earlier, our number one priority is to provide the most accurate automotive pricing information available -- in fact, that's been our main focus for the last 40+ years -- so we would certainly be quick to make a correction if necessary.
Sincerely,
Edmunds.com Customer Support
07/07/2009 10:25 AM
Well its wrong. If your average sale price is a net loss, and we have differing data, then you're wrong. Not many dealers do business with you, but a lot of us do business with autotrader. Your customer service is pathetic, and you are cutting the throats of the people paying you. Precisely what value is there in that?
Scott creason
425-820-7330
-------------------------------------------
From: Edmunds.com Help [mailto:edmunds@mailca.custhelp.com]
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:39 PM
[Incident: 090705-000014]
You recently contacted Edmunds.com. Please see our response below.
If you need to write back for any reason, feel free to reply to this message.
Thank you.
Subject
Discussion Thread
Response (Mark) 07/06/2009 02:39 PM
Thank you for contacting Edmunds.com.
Our True Market Value® prices estimate the average amount that consumers are paying for a particular vehicle in a particular region. These estimates are not meant to favor either the consumer or the dealer but simply to be as accurate as possible. They take into account a number of factors, including the vehicle's invoice price, its manufacturer's suggested retail price, the current supply and demand for the vehicle, the vehicle's relative brand strength and actual transaction price data. They also take into account any current manufacturer-to-dealer incentives for the vehicle.
Kind regards,
Edmunds.com Customer Support
www.edmunds.com
Customer 07/05/2009 02:12 PM
so far no one has responded to any emails or messages so far. how about this. you are charging dealers for advertising, the posting average purchase prices that are net losses to the dealerships. as part of autotrader now, you need to remember who your real "customer" is. its the dealers. every time a customer has come in and referenced your pathetic excuse for a "resource site" it has resulted in them thinking poorly of the dealership and thinking we're lying about YOUR misrepresentation. Maybe its about time the dealers did something about it. A decade of you sabotaging even honest business needs to come to an end.
scott creason
I’m not sure how to approach this, but I want to ruffle the feathers of as many of my peers as possible. After nine years running a special finance department, I have recently opened our new Hyundai store. At about the same time, Auto Trader (whom we likely all do business with) purchased Edmonds.com (who few of us actually do business with). The first few customers that came in “quoting” me Edmonds prices on my cars that were a net loss, I laughed at them. After more than a dozen in two months, I’m not laughing any more. On one side of the business, Auto Trader is extorting dealers on their used car sites. They’re the biggest, and they feel if you aren’t doing business with them, you’re not doing business. On the other side, Edmonds.com is telling customers they can buy cars at a net loss to the dealer. Any guesses as to who the customer is more likely to believe? The customers leave angry, assuming the big, mean, dealer is full of crap, and the internet company, much like the alien autopsy, the DaVinci code, and Nostradamus predicting 9/11, must be the god’s honest truth. I’ve had about enough of it. We are perfectly happy making a few hundred dollars on a car once in a while, but especially considering the industry the way it is, we have to at least sell the cars. Edmonds.com is not a resource, they’re an illness that needs to be cured. If only one of us is willing to make a stand against it, the kind of nonchalant, b.s. response you see below will continue. They feel we need them more than they need us. As I’m sure most of you already know, Hyundai has been announced as JD Power and Assoc’s No. 1 non luxury manufactures, and only out ranked by Cadillac, Porsche, and Lexus overall. I’ve run searches on many other manufacturers and models. We’re not the only one’s they’re doing it to. The claim their information is based on data. They, however are lying. They can’t break down sales by trim levels that are not ever reported. I say it doesn’t matter if they’re using a mandate handed down from the gods. The information needs to be removed from their site because it is damaging their TRUE customers; US.
Scott Creason
Hyundai of Kirkland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Edmunds.com Help [mailto:edmunds@mailca.custhelp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:30 PM
To: screason@fordofkirkland.com
Subject: so far no one has responded to any emails or messages so far. how about this.... [Incident: 090705-000014]
Subject
so far no one has responded to any emails or messages so far. how about this....
Discussion Thread
Response (Mark)
07/07/2009 01:30 PM
Hi, Scott. Thanks for writing back. If you have any specific examples of where your data does not match our data, please send them along. As I noted earlier, our number one priority is to provide the most accurate automotive pricing information available -- in fact, that's been our main focus for the last 40+ years -- so we would certainly be quick to make a correction if necessary.
Sincerely,
Edmunds.com Customer Support
07/07/2009 10:25 AM
Well its wrong. If your average sale price is a net loss, and we have differing data, then you're wrong. Not many dealers do business with you, but a lot of us do business with autotrader. Your customer service is pathetic, and you are cutting the throats of the people paying you. Precisely what value is there in that?
Scott creason
425-820-7330
-------------------------------------------
From: Edmunds.com Help [mailto:edmunds@mailca.custhelp.com]
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:39 PM
[Incident: 090705-000014]
You recently contacted Edmunds.com. Please see our response below.
If you need to write back for any reason, feel free to reply to this message.
Thank you.
Subject
Discussion Thread
Response (Mark) 07/06/2009 02:39 PM
Thank you for contacting Edmunds.com.
Our True Market Value® prices estimate the average amount that consumers are paying for a particular vehicle in a particular region. These estimates are not meant to favor either the consumer or the dealer but simply to be as accurate as possible. They take into account a number of factors, including the vehicle's invoice price, its manufacturer's suggested retail price, the current supply and demand for the vehicle, the vehicle's relative brand strength and actual transaction price data. They also take into account any current manufacturer-to-dealer incentives for the vehicle.
Kind regards,
Edmunds.com Customer Support
www.edmunds.com
Customer 07/05/2009 02:12 PM
so far no one has responded to any emails or messages so far. how about this. you are charging dealers for advertising, the posting average purchase prices that are net losses to the dealerships. as part of autotrader now, you need to remember who your real "customer" is. its the dealers. every time a customer has come in and referenced your pathetic excuse for a "resource site" it has resulted in them thinking poorly of the dealership and thinking we're lying about YOUR misrepresentation. Maybe its about time the dealers did something about it. A decade of you sabotaging even honest business needs to come to an end.
scott creason
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack Kitterman on -
I have had customers bring in print outs from Edmonds in the past and have had to take the extra time necessary to show them an invoice. I noticed the ones in the past did not have delivery costs from the factory and they also hold back removed. FDAF was not included and they wanted me to selll them the car or truck at that price. I suggested they buy it directly from Edmonds.com as my owner has to make a profit to pay for lights, flooring, office personnel etc. as well as myself.Most customers were reasonable and the ones that were not did not buy a vehicle from me.
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Permalink Reply by Scott Creason on
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This actually works with all of the customers that are thinking like car dealers when they are out buying a car. all of the ones who care about whether or not we stay in business. oh, and also the ones who actually think we're honest, hard working people who deserve to get paid for what we do like they do. I'm not looking for ways to deal with the problem. Edmonds is the causing the problem and they simply need to stop. Thanks for the input.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Bressi on -
I said this long ago. Honda has recently jumped in bed with Edmunds and we get the same effect. Edmunds, CarFax, Kelly Blue Book, Consumer Reports and too many others to name are responsible for our no gross deals. Keep in mind that it is Government mandated that the manufacturers reveal our cost to them. Then our manufacturers are more concerned with market share than the profitability of the Dealers.
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Permalink Reply by John Carlson on
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Government mandated that we provide our cost to whom??? The only mandate I am aware of is requiring the manufacturers window sticker be posted on new vehicles. What statue states the cost must be revealed?
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Permalink Reply by Scott Creason on
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Even if the manufacturers have to report the costs, Edmonds is quoting average sale prices at a net loss. Average! If we, on average, lost money on every car deal we'd go broke, like a lot of dealers are doing. They're quoting on very specific trim and option packages that are not vin decodeable. Once again, my point is simple. Accurate or not, it isn't helping consumers buy cars. It certainly isn't helping consumer opinion of dealers. And, the big one, it isn't helping Edmond's real customer, the dealers, sell cars. thanks for the input.
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Permalink Reply by Otto Sales on -
Good morning,
Cancel AUTO TRADER just do it you will survive..
You can fight City Hall.Litigation....gather round and shut off the cash.We must join together as dealers.Money talks..take it away.While court is long drag em in.We have been peed on by every one...The values of cars always has been a roller coaster...some cars should never have been built in the combinations they were.I have two small struggling car lots
in Wisconsin..I am one of the most knowledgeable buyers of used cars any where..Ok I blew my horn here...but when I do my job ..some web based DATA MINER kills our deals..Same reasons you posted.Books and web sites are manned by ROBOTS..who never
put their hands on "iron".Most behind the scenes of these ghost sights are
NOT CAR PEOPLE... Start a campaign explaining there is NO CHECK available from any of Edmund's inaccuracy's
YOU GET WHAT you Paid For ! You get nothing...
We all bitch..join together
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Permalink Reply by Paul Berndt on -
Edmunds vs. Auto Trader vs. N.A.D.A. vs. KBB
Test car: White 2006 VW Golf GL manual trans with 50,000 miles.
Edmunds dealer retail = $11,059.
Auto Trader (automatic and TDI) = Highest Price: $11,975 Lowest Price: $10,995 Average Price: $11,423.
N.A.D.A. = Clean Retail $10,700
KBB = Excellent $11,685
Now to me it looks as though there is not a whole lot of differance.
Could it be the particular make and model?
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Permalink Reply by John Carlson on
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2008 BMW M5 with 18k miles.
Kelley Blue Book Trade-in Value $56,300 Good Condition. $59,100 Excellent Condition.
Kelley Blue Book Private Party Value $59,500 Good Condition. $62,600 Excellent Condition.
Kelly Blue Book Retail Value $67,000
NADA Clean Trade-in Value $58,250
NADA Retail Value $64,875
Edmunds Trade-In Value $62,532
Edmunds Private Party Value $67,363
Edmunds Retail Value $71,320
Black Book Trade-In Value $57,350
Black Book Retail Value $64,250
Anyone interested in buying this car for the Edmunds trade-in value??? LOL
Edmunds is so far off the money!
BTW, I will sell this car for $56k. I just traded for this Saturday.
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Permalink Reply by Scott Creason on
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I would sell it for $56k too. and be happy to off load it. I'm refering to new cars however, not used. BMW seems to be one of the oddities so far. i don't know what incentives they have, but most of them seem to be "averaging" over cost on Edmonds. Again, i'm not picking on all of the sites. I'm not even claiming that there are huge inaccuracies. Edmonds is owned by auto trader now. we are all paying auto trader to tell our customers that they can buy our NEW cars at a loss. I'm not looking for a debate over whether i'm right or wrong about back of book, high dollar german cars. I'm just thinking it may be a bit counter productive for their true customers: THE DEALERS.
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Permalink Reply by John Carlson on
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I understand you are talking about new cars. The point is Edmunds is way off the money on how they are determining values INCLUDING used! Look at how far off they are on the values of a used BMW. They are off the money showing what average consumers are paying for new which is so far off that their values are at a loss to the dealer. On the used side their values are way over inflated! Whether new or used, you can not trust their information because it is way off from reality!
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Permalink Reply by Paul Berndt on
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$56k seems low from the above values??
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Permalink Reply by John Carlson on
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No, $56k doesn't seem low, it IS low!
Trade-in values = $56,300, $58,250, $62,532, $57,350.
Yeah, I'd say $56k is pretty low in comparison.
Here are what some 08 M5's brought at auction recently:
07/15/09 $56,000 18,382 mls Above BLACK SA
07/14/09 $56,000 10,929 mls Above SEPANG B
06/25/09 $57,750 12,465 mls Above MONACOBL
06/24/09 $60,000 19,603 mls Above BLACK SA
07/14/09 $63,200 11,531 mls Above White
07/10/2009 $67,500 4,513 mls Above ALPINE W
Yeah, I'd say $56k is low.
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